Does ladybug tools consider shading effect on surface with profile?

Hi all,

I wanted to examine a surface with a different length of the extrusion and spaces between it.


My hypothesis is that different length of extrusion creates a significant difference in the surface temperature. Probably something like this heatsink, where the number of fins actually affect the heat

However, after examining different lengths, I find that the result from energy plus did not really show much difference to the surface temperature (probably 0,5 degrees celsius)
I was wondering if this is a limitation of ladybug tools and if I should approach different methods (like finite element analysis/ CFD) to achieve those heatsink effects.
I use a single layer of solid material for the honeybee object and do not use any insulation.

Thank you in advance for sharing your expertise

Regards,
Ricardo

Hi @ricardo,

You’re correct that this is a limitation of the tools, primarily a limitation of Energy Plus, the HB Energy simulation engine.

You’re right that some kind of CFD / FEA would be needed to solve.

What HB is capturing is the reduction in solar exposure of the surface due to the fin, which will have some impact on temperature.

Generally speaking, I don’t believe coupling the internal temperatures to external fins or the facade surface is good practice. Generally you’d be looking to insulate and introduce breaks so that they are thermally separated.

The temperature of the fins and the facade will largely be driven by their solar exposure, the solar absorptance of the material, the emissivity of the material, thickness and thermal mass of the external layer, and air / wind exposure. I’m sure there’s much better explanations out there than mine!

Hi Charlie,

Thank you for your response!

Even when I increased the number of fins and extended the protrusion (with materials, thickness, solar absorbance and other parameters remaining the same), the average surface temperature remains pretty similar between each trial (with ± 0,5 degrees celsius).

I usually use HB for indoor conditions or the overall building (daylighting, comfort, energy usage, etc) and haven’t tried using it only for external surfaces. So I am not sure if HB is capable of calculating that. Even when HB component can output the external surface temperature, I think it is important to know what factors HB take into account to produce that external surface temperature

But since you said HB can differentiate which part has the reduced solar exposure due to the fin and which one doesn’t, for this case, I think I can still use HB.
I just need to find out why the result gave a similar surface temperature. Or do you think without the ability to include airflow (like in CFD), there will be not much difference between any number of fins with different sizes?

Thank you

Regards,
Ricardo

Hi @ricardo,

I assume you just want the facade surface temperature and not the temperature of the fin? That makes the simulation somewhat easier, including the fin temperature will up the complexity.

For the external comfort workflows HB does a great job of demonstrating difference in surface temperature due to solar exposure and material choice, from what I understand this is effectively a very similar study.

I can’t find any topics to hand, but there have been some recent discussions on this. The key element is to split your facade surface into a grid of smaller surface so that HB can simulate solar exposure and temperature for each element of the grid. You’ll also need to consider the Shadow Calc methods and other parts of the set up so that you’re happy with the assumptions of the model - likely you’ll need the update method to be to timestep is one aspect that comes to mind.

Hope this puts you on the right path

EDIT

The discussion I was thinking of was on one of your previous posts :slight_smile:

Thanks ,Charlie!

Yes I split the surface into a smaller geometry after that previous post and it works well in showing temperatures for each grid.
However, I was under the impression that if I am looking for the “average” surface temperature, I do not need to split the geometry into grids, since HB will average all grids anyway.
But now I am thinking maybe HB gives an inaccurate average surface temperature because I did not split the geometry into grids and HB could not differentiate which part received shadow/solar radiation and which part does not because there is only one surface instead of grids.
I will try that and see if it makes a difference.

Also, may I know where I can find more information about the Shadow Calculation methods (including the timestep method)? I am not familiar with that process.

Thank you for sharing your expertise, Charlie!

Regards,
Ricardo

No worries Ricardo,

Details of the Shadow Calc component are here:

But the level of detail you’re interested in might mean you need to start looking through the Energy Plus documentation on Big Ladder, such as here:

I agree you should get the same overall temperature if you averaged a grid or did a single surface, the grid will just help to visualise the hotter/cooler areas and allow you to understand the temperature difference between shaded and exposed areas.

What’s the aim of your study?

Best, Charlie

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Hi, Charlie

Thank you for the link! I will look into that.

I wanted to examine if those fins can actually reduce the average surface temperature. But according to the initial simulation, turned out it does not affect surface temperature (or it does, but only in a very small percentage).
So I am trying to discover what other factors might contribute to this result. One of them might be because of the absence of airflow in the simulation.

However, I am still curious, because even without the airflow, the blocking of the sunlight itself should be enough to produce a different average surface temperature (at least 1 or 2 degrees celsius).
Now, the surface temperature includes the fin itself, I might try calculating the surface temperature excluding the fin.

Regards,
Ricardo

Are the fins modelled here like shading attachements - a separate piece attached to the exterior of a room? Or are they modeled like actual extensions of the thermal zone, where the interior of the fin is technically part of the interior room volume?

If it’s modeled like a shading attachement, I’m not sure if the heat sink analogy works, since the fin isn’t actually representing a boundary between the heat source/sink (the room) and the exterior, with the exception of some thermal bridging.

If its modeled like an extension of the room, I think the heatsink analogy works a lot better. How exactly are you modeling this scenario? Are the fins just concave extrusions of the HB Room itself - so the fins and the non-fin exterior can all be considered one continuous exterior facade?

If you’re increasing fin coverage drastically, and they’re oriented in a way to provide actual shading, but the average surface metrics are constant, I think the fins may be increasing surface solar exposure at the same rate that it’s shading from solar exposure, because the fin is an extension of the room (i.e. it’s not a shading attachment).

In a typical shading condition, one side of the fin is exposed to solar while the other is in shade. For shading attachments, that side exposed to solar doesn’t matter since it’s not in thermal contact with the thermal zone, but in your case, both surfaces are participating in the zone heat balance (I think). Therefore your average surface temperature is equal to the area-weighted surface temperature exposed to solar, and the area-weighted shaded portions, with the solar part canceling out the benefit from the shaded part. If you switch to a fin as a shading attachment model, then you should see a larger impact on surface temperature.

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Hi Saeran, the fins modelled here is the actual extension of the thermal zone. Yes, it is technically part of the interior room volume and not a separate HB object.

This would explain why the surface temperature stays similar in each configuration. I agree, I think switching the fin to a shading attachment would produce an entirely different result.
Although, in real-life conditions, the fins should have conductive heat flowing from the fins themselves to the external surface and eventually to the interior. I am not sure if honeybee takes that conductive heat from the shading attachment into account when producing an exterior and interior surface temperature.

Regards,
Ricardo

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I think this is right since the shadow calculation algorithm seems to be equivalent in the split, and non-split surface case. I can think of a couple of minor differences between these two approaches though.

  • View factors would be different for each gridded surface, and the resulting radiant transfer wouldn’t be equivalent to a single surface representation. That’s why we don’t use a single surface to represent the analysis plane in our Radiance-studies.
  • Exterior wind speed is a nonlinear function of height, and is evaluated separately at each surface centroid, wind speed (which informs the surface convection) will have an assymetrical rate above and below the single surface centroid. So it won’t average out to be equal to the single surface representation.

I think at the scale of a floor level (~3m) the wind speed difference should be trivial. I think in this case, it’d also be trivial for radiant transfer difference.

However, I am very curious if the difference in radiant transfer in a gridded setup might be nontrivial if there’s a massive difference in view exposure for something like a glass curtainwall? Maybe not enough to have an impact on energy performance, but enough to impact thermal comfort - you’d get hot/cold spots on your facade, which would contribute to the spatial asymmetry of the interior thermal conditions. It would be interesting to see someone attempt this to see if there’s an impact.

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Hi Charlie,

Just to update you,
turned out that a single surface simulation produced a different result than the grid one


You can see that the average surface temperature in that surface differs
At this point, I am wondering which one will be more accurate.

I think it has something to do with that view factors. But according to my knowledge, in finite element simulation, it is called nodes/ degree of freedom, where more nodes mean more accuracy

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Interesting work @ricardo, it’s good to see!

I’m the grand scheme of building energy performance I think that variation in facade external surface temperature will have a negligible impact on either energy performance or internal comfort (but I’m happy to be proved wrong :))

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Hi @chris ,

Is there any documentation about the difference between using exterior “fin” as part of the HB room(like a room with a small extrusion) and using it as a HB shade?
I see that the surface temperature differs between those two methods.
Also,
Does dividing exterior surfaces into smaller grids make the “HB read face result” more accurate?

Thank you

Regards

@ricardo

I think most of your questions stem from misunderstanding the conceptual representation of surface heat transfer in EnergyPlus (EP), which is very different from heat transfer in an FEA. Once you understand that difference, you’ll see why modeling assumptions from FEAs, like greater accuracy from higher resolution meshing, don’t transfer to EP.

Conceptually, surface heat transfer in EP is modeled only in one dimension, parallel to the temperature gradient from the interior to the exterior. So adjacent surfaces in EP don’t transfer heat between each other. For this reason, splitting up surfaces in EP won’t have any effect on capturing heat transfer within the material plane, or at surface to surface intersections, like it would in a FEA.

In general this simplifying assumption is fine for most building energy workflows since building surfaces are composed of planar, anisotropically conductive materials where heat transfer within the 2D plane is mostly negligible, and the exceptions that occur at surface intersections from thermal bridging can be captured by modifying the entire material conductance.

However, EP is a pretty complex software and does include other ways of representing surface heat transfer. I reccomend checking out the Surface Heat Balance Manager / Processes section in the EnergyPlus Engineering Reference, it’ll clarify a lot of your questions, and go over alternative modeling workflows. Start with the Outside Surface Heat Balance: Engineering Reference — EnergyPlus 8.9 subsection.

It won’t, since surface-to-surface intersections don’t exchange heat, and shading surfaces in particular don’t participate in the energy balance, they are just used to block solar.

Just to reiterate, I still do agree with @charlie.brooker that the gridded average and single surface metrics will be equivalent overall. My comment regarding the view factor changing for gridded surfaces was more unvalidated speculation of a scenario where the interior or exterior scene varied wildly. It’s good that you tested out the assumption though, I think the < 1C difference indicates you don’t gain much from splitting.

Regarding what view factors are, they refer to the proportion of radiation transfered between two surfaces, relative to all radiation transferred from one of the surfaces. So, imagine all radiation from a point on a surface emitting, and absorbing radiation from a spherical hemisphere. The area projection of a neighboring surface onto that hemisphere, divided by the area of the hemisphere is the proportion of radiation transferred between the two surfaces, or their view factor.

The Engineering Reference linked above is your best bet. I would reccomend trying to find documentation about minimum widths for a thermal zone, or assumptions behind the surface air films in general. Thermal zones aren’t intended to have surfaces that are so close together like you are modeling in your extrusions and I’m sure the generic interior surface convection calculations won’t work for overly thin surfaces, with air films potentially in contact.

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Hi @SaeranVasanthakumar
Thank you for this insight!

Lots of research on facade heat transfer relies on EP, but some use FEA such as ANSYS or TRNSYS.
Therefore I wanted to know the plus and minus of both in the case of facade heat transfer.

As far as I know, FEA does not use EPW files like in EP so it cannot simulate the angle of the sun. I read some research that uses the combination of both EP and FEA but unfortunately they do not really specify the details of their workflow.

So, to clarify, do you think if I only seek the average surface temperature from the yellow part represented in the following pictures, there will be no difference between using fin as part of the HB room and using fin as part of the HB shade? Because both fins block solar in EP and both fins do not transfer heat to each other within the same surface. The only difference is that while the fin as hb room is part of the zone, the heat from the fin will be transferred to the indoor while fin as part of hb shade does not participate in heat transfer at all. Am I understanding it correctly now?

According to your opinion, the heat transfer from the fin to the other surfaces(such as shown in FEA image) is negligible?

I will definitely look into the reference that you gave me. You’ve been very helpful Saeran, thank you.

Technically yes, I don’t think you will see much changes in surface temperature for just the yellow part in this scenario, but only because the interior air is being conditioned by an HVAC system, so having completely different boundary conditions for the thermal zone won’t impact the temperature gradient across that yellow part. However, you will see big differences in the heating/cooling loads due to the differences in exposure to the exterior air and solar. You can test this out and see if my assumption is correct: as the fins get larger we should see different heating/cooling loads, but the surface temperatures should be fairly consistent.

I wouldn’t treat the fin as a shade, and fin as an extrusion as equivalent conditions, it’s a bad modeling assumption since they’re very different thermodynamic conditions. However, you can treat breaking the yellow part into a grid of surfaces and taking the average, versus simply modeling the yellow area as a single surface, as equivalent.

No, EP will not model that heat transfer, but you have to use your judgement to determine whether that is a reasonable assumption for your situation. Any time you turn a corner, there’s a break in the continuity of the insulation in order to accomodate a stud or column, which will result in thermal bridging. In most buildings, this corner thermal bridge is usually ignored since there aren’t a lot of corners in the building, and the non-corner surface tranfer dominates the heat exchange. But that’s not true in cases where you have external shading fins, or as in your case, multiple fins extruded from the surface, so I think you should account for the bridging.

Essentially, the fins create a very atypical condition, so the generic EP assumptions that are fine for a typical building may not apply in your case.

Good, glad to hear it!

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Hi @ricardo, interesting discussion!

It’s always interesting to think about the limitations of EnergyPlus and 1D heat transfer. A few things I would like to throw into the discussion:

Fins as heat sinks
I don’t think that such a fin density is analogous with heat sinks, in which maximizing contact area between the flowing volume (gas or fluid). There is an example application from COMSOL here, in the example files you will find a pdf describing the assumptions and

Use this model or demo application file (and its accompanying instructions) as a starting point for your own simulation work.

Material properties
In reality all the assumptions that EnergyPlus (or Therm up until the recent beta) make about materials such as calculating with a constant thermal conductivity is questionable. In reality it is always dependant on the temperature and relative humidity. In your example the glazing is not prone to high absorption, but solar exposure really affects the surface temperature, and these neglections might play a role inner even larger fluctuations than ~1C.

CFD
The external part of your study is heavily influenced by convection between your window pane-fin geometry and external air. Wind speed, direction, turbulences and their fluctuations would also impact your result - I’m not sure about the extent though, I’m just thinking out loud here.
This is usually modelled with the finite volume method, whereas solid materials use the finite element method. For the LBT ecosystem you can have Butterfly incorporated to your workflow, which uses OpenFOAM as the engine.

Coupling
When it comes to making EP results more accurate, soon you realise that nothing is “simple” anymore: most assumptions can be questioned, but the effort it takes to properly model these things in 3D, grows pretty fast. You would need to use engines capable of heavy coupling between not only various modes of transport (heat, moisture, air), but as a result, coupling between different solving methods (finite element and finite volume). This is far from trivial, and I am a complete noob in this area.

Suggestions
I would simply consider the fins as shades, maybe account for the thermal bridging happening at those details, and go grab a beer soon after, because the other routes are significantly more time consuming and I have doubts about the level of improvement introduced in your results. In order to make your simulation more grounded, you could use Therm (free to use) to get a more granular understanding of temperature distribution in this structure. You can look at various boundary conditions, and maybe interpolate through the year. But keep in mind, that these results will have their own biases and errors! It won’t consider e.g. thermal diffusivity of the materials, as it is steady state. For transient simulations (and introducing hygric assumptions), WUFI is a great start, although you need to venture into a more costly territory. In order to properly model in 3D, I suggest and use COMSOL Multiphysics, but that costs both your kidneys twice. At least you will have a more serious looking graphical image and spent weeks on simulating a month worth of results. In this case, you will lose other information, such as internal boundary conditions as a results of occupancy, lighting power density, appliances, HVAC and thermal zoning, etc, mentioned by @SaeranVasanthakumar in the post above me.

Jokes aside, don’t forget that we are trying to do surgery with a blunt axe here, the “performance gap” exists for many reasons, partially for these discussed above.

I think your question is deep within this gap, I have no idea which assumptions would bring you to the “close enough” range…

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@furtonb awesome write-up, it’s great to have someone with more experience with FEAs add some insight. I’ve only used Therm, WUFI, and OpenFoam, so it’s interesting to hear COMSOL brought up as a point of comparison.

Looks like you got cut off here :slight_smile: , what’s the rest of your thought here?

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